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Safety and Buildings Automatic Fire Sprinkler System Contractors and Journeymen Council Meeting Summaries
Meeting summaries are
tentative until accepted by the council at a subsequent meeting.
Thursday, March 10, 2005, 10 a.m., Room 3C, Thompson Commerce Center, 201 West Washington Avenue, Madison, Wisconsin Council Members Attendance: Jeff Bateman Present; Dan Driebel Present; Greg Hintz Present; Chris Schoenbeck Present; Jim Smith Present Visitors: Annie M. Early, Jack Neuhauser Department of Commerce Staff Members: Jim Quast, Ron Acker 1. Welcome and Review of Agenda. Chairman Chris Schoenbeck opened the meeting. The agenda was reviewed and the election of chairperson and vice-chairperson was added. 2. Review September 22, 2004 Meeting Summary. The September 22, 2004 meeting summary was reviewed and accepted as written. 3. Election of Chairperson and Vice-chairperson. The Statutes require the election of a chairperson and vice-chairperson at the first Council meeting of each year. The Statutes also indicate that Jim Smith is the Council secretary. Nominations were opened for the positions of chairperson and vice-chairperson. Chris Schoenbeck was nominated, seconded and unanimously re-elected as chairperson. Jeff Bateman was nominated, seconded and unanimously re-elected as vice-chairperson. 4. Division Update. Comm 5: A public hearing was held on February 28 for some minor changes in chapter Comm 5 relating to welder certification and the master plumber-restricted appliance license. The comment period for the proposed changes ends on March 11. Budget: In the Governor’s budget bill, the Department is proposing to change the license terms for plumbers and fire sprinkler installers from 2 years to 4 years. The bill also eliminates about 21 positions in the Safety and Buildings Division, with all but one vacant. List Serve:
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through the Safety and Buildings Division home page on the Internet
located at www.commerce.wi.gov/SB. 5. Sprinkler System Testers. The council discussed possible code clarification of what sprinkler system testers can do and whether to institute new continuing education requirements for testers. The department’s position is that if testers are just testing and not allowed to do any maintenance and repairs, then there is no need for continuing education. There are currently about 50 to 60 licensed testers. It was noted that it is not possible to put a list of “repairs” in the code. The Statutes indicate that a person must have a license to “install” fire sprinklers, but the Statutes do not address maintenance or repair. Council members indicated that sprinkler system valves change over years, and testers should be required to take continuing education to keep up on the new valves and systems. Also, some persons continue to hold the tester license but do not do any testing, and continuing education requirements may screen them out. The council discussed a document previously prepared but not issued that explained what testers can and can not do. The council recommended modifying that document and issuing it. The council also recommended leaving the code as written regarding tester activities, but should be revised to require continuing education requirements for tester license renewal. 6. Other Licensing Issues. The council discussed the subject of unlicensed contractors installing fire sprinkler systems. The department must be notified of these situations before action can be taken. Notification must be in writing, and can be by Email. The department needs evidence such as names, locations, dates, etc., in order to start enforcement action and build a case. Complaints may be sent to Dan Meneguin, or Matt Beckwith, who is involved with the division’s complaint tracking system. 7. Adjournment. The meeting was adjourned, and another meeting was not scheduled. Wednesday, September 22, 2004, 10 a.m. Room 3C, Thompson Commerce Center, 201 West Washington Avenue, Madison, Wisconsin Council Members Attendance: Jeff Bateman – Present, Dan Driebel – Present, Greg Hintz – Present, Chris Schoenbeck – Present, Jim Smith - Present Visitors: Annie M. Early, Dan Gengler, Jack Neuhauser, Steve Breitlow Staff Members: Jim Quast, Ron Acker Welcome and Review of Agenda. Chairman Chris Schoenbeck opened the meeting. The agenda was reviewed and no changes were proposed. Review May 20, 2004 Meeting Summary. The May 20, 2004 meeting summary was reviewed and accepted as written. Division Update. Comm 5 Revisions: The last set of revisions in chapter Comm 5 were effective August 1, 2004; council members were previously sent copies of the revised chapter. A scope statement has recently been approved for the next revisions to chapter Comm 5, including potential changes relating to sprinkler system testers. Building Code: A set of miscellaneous revisions in the building code is currently at standing committee review in the legislature. The review has been extended another 30 days, and one of the reviewing committees has asked for a meeting with the department. Department staff have begun the next complete update of the building code. This update will review the 2006 edition of the ICC suite of codes for utilization as the basis for the commercial building code. Two new advisory councils are being formed, one for fire protection systems and one for fire resistance systems. Training: Jim Smith distributed copies of a pamphlet containing information about a fire sprinkler design training course being offered on October 6 in Milwaukee. Administrative Forfeiture. Jim Quast distributed draft copies of a proposal relating to administrative forfeitures for licensing, certification and registration violations. He explained that this proposal would be a method of dealing with unlicensed individuals doing work that requires a license. Currently the department needs a court of law to pursue action against unlicensed persons, and that requires coordination with local courts. A statutory change is needed to give the department authority to development rules for the forfeiture requirements. This means that a bill needs to be introduced in the legislature. The department is looking for feedback on the proposal from stakeholders. The council expressed general support for the proposal. Stop Work/Stop Use Procedures. Jim Quast distributed draft copies of proposed changes in chapter Comm 3 relating to stop work and stop use procedures. The department believes it currently has statutory authority to develop and enforce these procedures. These rules would be used where there is a significant code violation that merits an immediate response to make a correction and to stop the work. The proposed rules describe how the procedures would be used and detail the appeal process. As another enforcement tool, the procedures would be used selectively based on each unique situation. The department is again looking for feedback from stakeholders. The council expressed general support for the proposal. Sprinkler System Testers Proposed Rule Changes. Jim Quast distributed draft copies of proposed changes under chapter Comm 5 relating to responsibilities and continuing education for sprinkler system testers. The changes are intended to clarify what testers can do and to institute new continuing education requirements for testers. The council expressed opposition to allowing the testers to do any “maintaining”, and indicated that the rules should limit the testers to do repairing only. However, it was noted that it is too difficult to codify or define exactly what repairs would be allowed. The council expressed support for leaving the code as written regarding responsibilities, but to require continuing education requirements. It was commented that the proposed 6 hours of continuing education is not enough over the 4-year license period. Adjournment. The meeting was adjourned, and another meeting was not scheduled. ************************************************** Thursday, May 20, 2004, 10 a.m. Room 3C, Thompson Commerce Center, 201 West Washington Avenue, Madison, Wisconsin Council
Members Attendance: Visitors: Staff
Members: 1. Welcome and Review of Agenda. Chairman Chris Schoenbeck opened the meeting. The agenda was reviewed and no changes were proposed. 2. Review February 19, 2004 Meeting Summary. The February 19, 2004 meeting summary was reviewed and accepted as written. 3. Division Update. Building Code: Proposed rules for miscellaneous changes in the Commercial Building Code were the subject of a public hearing in March. The proposal will update the NFPA 13 and 13R standards to the 2002 editions. It will not adopt NFPA 24, but municipalities can require compliance with that standard. The Department has prepared a draft of miscellaneous changes in the Historic Building Code, chapter Comm 70, for a public hearing on June 7, 2004. Some corresponding changes will also be made in the Commercial Building Code. The proposed effective date for both packages is January 1, 2005. It was noted that the licensing exams will need to be updated to reflect the updated NFPA standards. Department staff reported that a scope statement has been published for the complete update of the Commercial Building Code. This update will look at the 2003 and 2006 editions of the International Building Code. A comparison of the ICC codes with the NFPA building code will not be conducted by the Department. Two new specialty councils will be created for fire protection-related issues: one for active fire protection systems and one for passive fire protection systems. Comm 5 Revisions: The Comm 5 revisions were adopted in April and will be effective on August 1, 2004. Credential terms are being changed to 4 years except for those terms that are specified by Statute. 4. Sprinkler System Testers Responsibilities and Continuing Education. The council discussed issues related to what sprinkler system testers are authorized to do and whether continuing education should be required for sprinkler system testers. The Statutes indicate that no person may install automatic fire sprinkler systems unless licensed by the Department. There is no mention of repair. The discussion centered on the question of what is repair and who can do it. Chapter Comm 5 requires the contractor, not the sprinkler tester, to install, maintain and repair sprinkler systems. The Department's position is that testing is not repair and maintenance. Although testers are doing everything required under NFPA 25, that wasn't the intent of chapter Comm 5. The council's position was to not expand the tester's responsibilities to allow repair and maintenance, except for reactivation procedures/adjustments that are necessary to put the system back into operation following a test. It was noted that the purpose of continuing education is to educate a person on new requirements and changes in requirements. The exam evaluates a person's initial knowledge and experience to first obtain the license. It was also pointed out that continuing education promotes education, but it does not guarantee that needed education is obtained because people can pick and choose the type of continuing education they receive. Department staff indicated that the Department would look into requiring continuing education for sprinkler testers and allow minor repairs necessary to put the system back in service. It was also noted that there is a need to clarify the tester's responsibilities and to review the tester's exam. 5. Adjournment. The meeting was adjourned, and another meeting was not scheduled. ********************************************** Thursday, February 19, 2004 Time: 10:00 a.m. Location: Conference Room 3C, Tommy G. Thompson Commerce Center, 201 West Washington Avenue, Madison, Wisconsin Council Members Attendance: Visitors: Jack Neuhauser, Annie M. Early, Dan Gengler, Kenneth Walsh, Dave Bloom Staff Members: Jim Quast, Ron Acker 1. Welcome and Review of Agenda. Chairman Chris Schoenbeck opened the meeting. The agenda was reviewed with no changes proposed. 2. Review March 13, 2003 Meeting Summary. The March 13, 2003 meeting summary was reviewed and accepted as written. In the future, meeting summaries will be sent to council members usually within 2 weeks after council meetings. This is because the summaries will be posted on the Safety and Buildings Division web site at that time. 3. Election of Chairperson and Vice-chairperson. The Statutes require the election of a chairperson and vice-chairperson at the first Council meeting of each year. The Statutes also indicate that Jim Smith is the Council secretary. Nominations were opened for the positions of chairperson and vice-chairperson. Chris Schoenbeck was nominated, seconded and unanimously re-elected as chairperson. Jeff Bateman was nominated, seconded and unanimously re-elected as vice-chairperson. 4. Division Update. Building Code: Proposed rules for miscellaneous changes in the Commercial Building Code will be the subject of a public hearing on March 16, 2004. The proposal will expand plan review for sprinkler systems to include R-2 occupancies. Last year about 50 to 60 building plans involving sprinkler systems were reviewed by the Department under the current requirements. The Department is currently preparing a draft of miscellaneous changes in the Historic Building Code for public hearings this spring. Some corresponding changes will also be made in the Commercial Building Code. On a related subject, the council briefly discussed piping requirements for combined water service to a building. The Department wanted to get the council's position regarding material and pressure requirements for piping for water services that serve both plumbing systems and sprinkler systems. The council's position was that all parts of a sprinkler system must be listed. 5. Continuing Education for Sprinkler System Testers. As a follow-up to last meeting's discussion, the council questioned what the Department was doing regarding requiring continuing education for sprinkler system testers. Jim Quast reported that the Department is evaluating the subject now, and looking at similar credentials such as cross connection control testers. Those testers do not have continuing education requirements. It was also noted that testing does not change very much over time. Because chapter Comm 5 references NFPA 25 relative to the tester credential, the Department may need to look at the requirements in NFPA 25 which now include inspection, testing and maintenance. The requirements in the building code also need to be researched. Jim noted that the original intent of the credential was not to have the tester evaluate the appropriateness of the sprinkler system size or layout. An interpretation regarding the intent of the credential may need to be issued. 6. Enforcement of Work by Non-Licensed Personnel. A question was raised as to what can be done when a person finds work being performed by non-licensed personnel. When a person finds this situation, a complaint can be filed with the Department or with the local jurisdiction. The Department is limited in the type of actions or responses it may undertake regarding activities by non-licensed individuals. The Department can ask the local district attorney or the state attorney general to pursue fines and penalties. The Department does not have citation authority at this time. The Department is looking at developing some proposed rules for stop work/stop use and also for possible administrative forfeiture. However, a statutory change is needed before rules can be developed for administrative forfeiture. In addition, some municipalities have ordinances that can be used to stop or fine work being done by non-licensed personnel. 7. Contractor License Issues. Jeff Bateman indicated that he would like to see a tie between the licensed sprinkler fitter and the contractor, like it once was. It was noted that plumbers do not have this tie, and that the master plumber and the sprinkler contractor are ultimately responsible for correct installations. It was again noted that it is easier for the Department to discipline a person rather than a business when violations of a license are found. Jeff indicated that this is not a problem now, but it could potentially be a problem. 8. Contractor and Fitter License Exams. It was commented that allowing the use of the NFPA handbook for the contractors exam is giving the answers to some of the exam questions. Only the NFPA standards should be allowed for the exam. If the handbook is allowed, then the design element on the exam needs to be made more complicated and difficult. It was noted that the Department made the change to allow the handbook in order to be more consistent for all exams, and because a person can use any documents available when on the job. Department staff will look at the exams and consider modifications to make them more difficult when using the handbook. It was reported that the failure rate for first time takers of the fitters exam is 34%. It was also commented that more time is needed for the fitters exam. 9. Adjournment. The meeting was adjourned. Another meeting was not scheduled at this time.
Automatic Fire Sprinkler System Contractors and Journeymen Council Progress Report Date: Thursday, March 13, 2003 Council Members Attendance: Jeff Bateman Present Visitors: Jack Neuhauser, Cory Gall, Dan Gengler, Ken Walsh Staff Members: Ron Buchholz, Bob DuPont, Kimberly Walker, Jim Quast, Ron Acker, Jim Miller, Bill Sullivan 1. Welcome and Review of Agenda. Chairman Chris Schoenbeck opened the meeting. Everyone introduced themselves and indicated the group they represented. Ron Buchholz thanked Council members for offering their time to serve on the Council. He also commented on the long-time use of citizen councils to advise the Safety and Buildings Division in developing and revising administrative codes. 2. Review August 6, 2002 Meeting Summary. The August 6, 2002 meeting summary was reviewed and accepted as written. 3. Election of Chairperson and Vice-chairperson. The Statutes require the election of a chairperson and vice-chairperson at the first Council meeting of each year. The Statutes also indicate that Jim Smith is the Council secretary. Nominations were opened for the positions of chairperson and vice-chairperson. Chris Schoenbeck was nominated, seconded and unanimously re-elected as chairperson. Jeff Bateman was nominated, seconded and unanimously re-elected as vice-chairperson. 4. Division Update. Plumbing Code Update: The plumbing code changes recently adopted will be effective May 1, 2003. The Council discussed the use of backflow prevention devices relative to toxic or non-toxic liquids in sprinkler systems. Changes that affect sprinkler systems relate to registration and plan submittal requirements for cross connection control devices. The Council discussed what devices can be installed by plumbers versus fire protection installers. Under the revised plumbing code rules, all double check valves need to be registered, with a fee required for the registration. RP valves not in health care facilities also need to be registered; if in health care facilities, plan review is required. [Editorial Note: The Department will not be requiring registration of double check valves; the rule will be changed.] License Exams: Bill Sullivan informed the Council on the status of the license exams. He distributed copies of a summary of modifications to the exam data base. The exams were changed in the fall of 2000, and again in May of 2002 to reflect the adoption of the International Building Code. These changes were mostly housekeeping; the Department wants to validate the exams in the future. It was noted that there is nothing in process currently to update the code to the new NFPA 13 standard, but the code does allow the option of using alternative standards. It was suggested that a new exam should be ready before new standards are adopted. At this time, Bob DuPont briefed the Council on some ideas being considered by the Department relating to inspection requirements for all types of buildings. The Department is considering how to create a more effective and efficient inspection program for all building elements for commercial buildings. Bob noted that the Insurance Services Organization recommends 15 building inspections be conducted on a new building. Currently under the uniform dwelling code program, the Department recognizes independent certified inspection agencies to conduct the required inspections and registers builders under the Contractors Financial Responsibility Certification. Bob distributed and reviewed 3 tables entitled "State Level Policy and Operations Requirements by Building Type and Building Element". There was a table for Commercial Buildings, Multi-Family Dwellings, and One- and 2-Family Dwellings. Bob noted that people have questioned why homes require several inspections for various building elements, but commercial buildings do not. The Department is looking at developing a model for inspections similar to the current one- and 2-family dwelling inspection program. In that program, private inspection agencies perform the inspections and the Department monitors the agencies. The private sewage program currently works in a similar way, with the counties doing the inspections and the state plumbing consultants overseeing the program. The Department is also considering requiring competency of inspectors for commercial buildings. 5. Proposed Comm 5 Revisions. Copies of chapter Comm 5 and a draft of proposed changes in chapter Comm 5 were distributed. The changes relating to sprinkler licenses were contained in SECTIONS 4 and 5. These changes relate to late renewal of a license, certification or registration. The time that a renewal is considered late is changed from one term to 5 years. These changes are patterned after the Department of Regulation and Licensing requirements for renewal. Continuing education requirements and the terms of licenses are not being changed. Some Council members expressed opposition to SECTION 21. This change removes the requirement to complete a special course in order to install a multipurpose piping system for persons who obtained their plumbers license prior to January 1, 2002. This change reflects that a plumber has the statutory right to install such systems and is responsible for the installations to be code-compliant. The Council passed a motion 4 to 1 to take a position in opposition to SECTION 21 in the proposed Comm 5 revisions. When the proposed Comm 5 revisions are approved for public hearing, Council members will be sent the public hearing announcement. 6. Continuing Education for Testers. The Council discussed requiring continuing education for sprinkler system testers. The code does not currently require this. It was suggested to require 12 hours of continuing education for renewal of the testers credential. It was noted that there are several organizations that would provide acceptable courses for this education, and that it was needed in order to maintain the integrity of the systems. The Council unanimously passed a motion to require continuing education for sprinkler system testers. The Division will evaluate the request and its necessity. 7. Council Member Issues. It was noted that a group needs to be assembled to review the exams, and meetings to update the exams need to be scheduled. 8. Adjournment. The meeting was adjourned. Another meeting was not scheduled at this time. 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